The book, Cults: Faith, Healing and Coercion (Oxford 1999), by Marc Galanter, is hard to put down.

It's not just an excellent introduction to the dynamics of religious cults, but of social psychology in general.

The author uses systems theory as a method for thinking about cults---reflecting, for example, on how feedback, monitoring, and group border control can assist us in understanding insular religious movements.

One interesting aspect of cults that the author discusses, and that I had not ever read elsewhere, is their ability to induce in members the 'Stockholm Effect.'

This is a term borrowed from a hostage bank robbery in Stockholm some years back, in which hostages began to identify with the person holding them hostage. The author argues that something like this is going on in charismatic religious movements, where initiates are both threatened with abuse and derive their emotional comfort from the same source. People are made to feel abandoned or damned if they stray from the group's norms, but are given family comfort and safety if they adhere closely to the group's beliefs and goals. Like a roach motel, you check in, but have difficulty checking out.

I feel that this book's insights into the social psychology of cults is also valuable in understanding propagandistic movements and charismatic manipulation generally. For those interested in the academic study of cults, charismatic movements, or social psychology in general, I recommend it strongly.

You can find the book at Amazon.com here: http://www.amazon.com/Cults-Healing-Coercion-Marc-Galanter/dp/0195123700/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MNF1BPDwE4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVkuayn4YtQ&feature=related

Forget the fact they are talking about eagles, which may have been ospreys.

Stop the video at 34/35 seconds and put it on fullscreen.

I personally haven't been able to "see" in that realm yet. I believe that realm exist and that some people can be shown things by God. I believe people can hear from God, not necessarily with an audible voice, but by the Spirit. I have been pondering on these things for a while. Every now and then even getting a little tid bit on this subject.

In 2007 I was attending a conference where one of the speakers was talking about angelic visitations. I didn't know that,that, was going to be his subject matter that morning and no one had announced it to be. We were in praise and worship earlier that morning and I was standing with my hands lifted in praise to God. My right hand "brushed something" and I moved my hand back thinking I may have hit someone's hair. I went back into worshipping "in the spirit" and again it happened. I brushed "it" off my hand, whatever "it" was. After the third and forth time of "brushing against something" and feeling this on my arm and hand, I realized that there must have been something in the Spirit realm standing there besides me. I understand now that "it" was possibly an angel and that I had "brushed against it's wings". Whoahhh!!

I asked Father God to tell me why it is that some can see in that realm and some can't. I also asked why it is that sometimes, images are captured on camera, that apparantley no one is seeing in the natural. The reply was this "Cameras don't need Faith to see, they just see".

I let it go and really haven't thought too much on it until lately, the other night I got something in my spirit about looking further into it in the book of Revelations. I think I have an answer for this phenomenon, that I know some will not like and even argue about, BUT, what else is new ? Here goes!!

Rev.1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Notice That John says " I was in the Spirit" and "heard". I know for me, personaly, that, it is when I get myself alone with God and listen for Him, He speaks to me "In the Spirit". I am reminded that in John 4, Jesus teaches us that God is a Spirit and those that worship, must worship in spirit and in truth. The only way to hear from God, except He show up, is in the Spirit, where it is His Spirit speaking to our spirit, for we are made in the image of God, a Spirit, therefore that is our most effective line of communications with Him. Spirit to spirit !!

Rev.4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Here again, John says " I was in the spirit" and "behold", which in this instance means to look upon something, to see. For those who desire to "see" in that other realm, you must see it in "the Spirit". To see in the Spirit isn't something new nor is it taboo by the Scriptures. Jacob saw in a dream and heard The Lord, so it had to be from the Spirit . Almost ALL of the Prophets in Scripture, "heard in the Spirit" and "Saw in the Spirit".

THERE is the danger that if you start seeing into the "spirit realm" that you will also see not just the Godly things, but the ungodly as well. As John continued on his "virtual tour" of Heaven, he also saw things that weren't exactly pleasant to the eye. He saw death and destruction and evil abounding as well as the Beauty and Majesty of God the Father and of The Lord Jesus.  

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Again John was "in the spirit", but note, "he carried me away". The Apostle Paul recalls a time fourteen years earlier that he too was "in the spirit", and was shown things about heaven. John being "carried away" was being "translated" in the Spirit "into the wilderness", where he was shown things yet to come. "the wilderness" in this text, in my opinoin, is not some symbolic place that John was being shown, but a real place that exist in that Spiritual realm.

Is all this someone's imagination ? I think not ! If it is then we ALL really have a problem with our Faith.

God is an unseen God. Yet we know that we know, He is real. The Scriptures tell us that one day we will see Him face to face. We will be in constant Worship of the One who was and is and is to come!

Meanwhile, we need to "get in the Spirit" as much as we can, if we have a desire to hear and see the things of God. Remember, God is a Spirit and those that worship Him, MUST worship Him in the Spirit and with the Truth that God is God and desires our worship.

There are many of people who say they have the "Spirit" and even manifest some of the signs, ie, talking in tongues, but they haven't been able to "see in the Spirit". I submit, in closing, there is a difference between "being in the spirit" and the "spirit being in you".

The modern phenomenon of Jewish believers in Jesus Christ as their Messiah has a long history in the United States, and (as is the case with most modern Jewish history) has strong ties to a European heritage as well. Foundations for the twentieth century were laid, of course, in the nineteenth century and before; worldwide, estimates of Jewish conversions to Christianity approximated 250,000 during the 1800s, including such notables as British Prime Minister Disraeli, Old Testament commentary wri ters Franz Delitzsch and David Baron, and the first Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, Michael Solomon Alexander.1 However, in America, this phenomenon has taken on some unique characteristics, the most prominent of which has been the evolution of what was known as "Hebrew Christianity" into today's "Messianic Judaism." While some still try to maintain the existence of a present-day dichotomy between the two, for the most part, the latter has come to encompass the former.

This has not always been so. For many, the terms Messianic Jew and Hebrew Christian describe "different streams or ways of being a Jewish believer in Yeshua" (Hebrew for Jesus).2 Historian David Rausch emphatically believes that

at one end of the spectrum is Hebrew Christianity with a completely assimilated and church-acculturated Jewish convert to Christianity and on the other end of the spectrum is Messianic Judaism with the Jewish Christian maintaining traditional practice and either attending a Messianic congregation and/or a regular synagogue. To make this even more complex, there are Jewish believers in Jesus at various points along this spectrum who are using both terms ("H ebrew Christian" and "Messianic Jew") to describe themselves!3

For many within the movement, though (as discussed below), both terms are used, though Hebrew Christianity is often applied to the movement before the 1960s and 1970s. One anthropologist, Juliene Lipson, defined a Hebrew Christian as "a Jew who has accepted Christ as the Messiah and his savior, but who nonetheless chooses to retain his identity as a Jew." These Jewish believers are encouraged to join Christian churches in order to "avoid separating themselves from Gentile Christians," while at the same time, they are encouraged to join fellowships with other Hebrew Christians "to retain their ethnic identity and culture." 4 Others use the term as equivalent to Messianic Judaism, having "more in common with Orthodox Judaism than with the other two major forms [Conservative and Reform]. In fact [says this writer], ther e is more common ground between Hebrew Christianity and Orthodox Judaism than between the latter and Reform Judaism."5 The origins of this movement today can be said to have coincided with the period of the "national reawakening" of the Jewish people at the turn of the century.6

The early Hebrew Christians were mainly "fundamentalists" (the term comes from The Fundamentals , a series of books released from 1910-1915 in twelve volumes, detailing the absolute veracity of the Bible), who held a pro-Jewish and pro-Zionist position.7 In the late 1800s and early 1900s, there were several attempts at starting Hebrew Christian congregations, including in New York City in 1895, Toronto in 1917, Chicago in 1931, and Los Angeles in the 1930s.8 John Zacker, a Russian Jew, formed the Hebrew Christian Synagogue of Philadelphia, recognized as "the first distinct Jewish Christian house of worship in the United States;" it opened on February 25, 1922. 9

On May 22, 1901, the Boston Conference of the Messianic Council met, organized by Mark Levy, an English Jew, to push his idea to form an alliance in America of Jewish believers. This conference planned another conference to organize a Hebrew Christian Alliance of America (HCAA), which took place on July 28-30, 190310 (Louis Meyer, the corresponding secretary of this organizing conference, helped edit The Fundamentals ).11

Inaction followed this conference until 1913, when Maurice Ruben, a European-born Jewish businessman, held a meeting in Pittsburg with others (including Sabbati Rohold, an Orthodox Jew born in Palestine) to plan a conference, which established the HCAA in 1915. Rohold was elected its first President.12

The "driving motive" of the early HCAA was deemed to be evangelism, which was seen to fall "squarely on the shoulders of Hebrew Christians."13 In 1917, the HCAA began publishing the HCA Quarterly with a Yiddish supplement. It called its first full-time worker, Dr. Emmanuel Greenbaum;14 while the position of "worker-evangelist " had to be dropped in 1923,15 by 1932 missionaries were added once again.16 In 1923, the HCAA had established a "Chair of Jewish Studies" at the Moody Bible Institute, held by Solomon Birnbaum 17 (a position held today by Dr. Louis Goldberg). 18

From the beginning, the HCAA wished to be involved in the Zionist cause in Palestine. Though rejected by the Jewish Congress and the American Zionist Organization, they sent two workers to Palestine in 1920. In 1933, the International Hebrew Christian Association (IHCA) bought land to establish a colony near Gaza, but the contract was eventually broken, and they were not reimbursed until 1942.19 The IHCA had been formed in 1925 and headquartered in London. By 1935, it had affiliated alliances in approximately twenty countries (today, there are thirteen natonal Alliances affiliated with the IHCA). 20

In the 1920s, the HCAA took part in the fight against rising anti-Semitism, with records showing their strong denunciation of Henry Ford's distribution of the forged Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion . 21 In the 1930s, the HCAA protested the treatment of Jews in Nazi Germany, especially calling attention to the plight of the one and three-quarter million Christians of Jewish descent, who were "all treated as Jews while the Jews of Germany consider[ed] the m Christians." They therefore had trouble finding relief in either camp.22 The HCAA helped many of them to relocate, and continued to aid victims of the Holocaust after World War II (especially in Hungary, where a large mission was established).23

One outcome of the growing anti-Semitism, which even existed in churches in countries such as Germany, was a growing interest in establishing separate Hebrew Christian congragations, as a counteractive force.24 In 1934, the First Hebrew Christian Church was established under Presbyterians in Chicago. It had a Christian worship service with a Jewish "flavor," and was headed by David Bronstein (later, under the leadership of Daniel Juster in the 1970s, the name was changed to Adat Ha Tikveh and made more "messianic").25 This did not mean, however, that Hebrew Christians were moving in the direction of modern Messianic Judaism (the establishment of a totally separate identity for Jewish believers); in fact, back in 1917, the HCAA had taken a strong stand against such a m ovement, and had promised "that the Alliance stand on this issue would never change... 'to be absolutely free from it, now and forever' .'" 26 The HCAA was to remain a fellowship of Jewish believers, who nevertheless maintained their ties to Christian churches.

The HCAA continued to remain somewhat active in the next few decades after World War II. It ran "Haven of Grace," a home for elderly Jewish Christians, from 1953-1966.27 A zenith was reached with the "World Congress of Hebrew Christians," held in 1955 during the Jewish High Holy Days, and considered at the time to be "the largest gathering of Jewish believers in the history of the movement."28 Branches continued to be formed around the country (one formed in Miami in 1957);29 however, progress was slow (and often non-existent), to the extent that B.Z. Sobel in 1974 characterized the Hebrew Christian movement as possessing "an overwhelming bleakness, enervating ambivalence, and negativity."30

Things were beginning to change, though. The 1960s had arrived, and the younger generation was beginning to assert itself. Many wanted to explore more of their Jewish heritage and practices. Within the movement as a whole, as Rausch explains,

there had always been two attitudes toward Jewish practice. The mainstream of the movement believed that any return to Jewish practices would put one under the Law. This was interpreted as something Christians should never do -- even Jewish Christians ... Nevertheless, ( rightfully or wrongfully too) a smaller group within Hebrew Christianity asserted that the Jewish believer had a right to maintain his Jewish heritage and identity.31

In 1966, under the auspices of the HCAA, the Young Hebrew Christian Youth Organization (YHCYO) was begun; in 1967, it became the Young Hebrew Christian Alliance (YHCA). It held its first separate conference in 1970 at Messiah College in Pennsylvania (in 1975, the YHCA was renamed the Young Messianic Jewish Alliance of America [YMJA]), and began to surpass the parent organization in membership and enthusiasm.32 Many of today's leaders of the Messianic Jewi sh movement have come from the YHCA, energized by the "Jesus movement" of the late 1960s and early 1970s.33 An obvious "generation gap" grew between the older "denominational" Hebrew Christians and these younger "Messianic Jews." The upcoming generation wanted to change the styles of worship and evangelism to a more Jewish context. It was also at this time that "Jews for Jesus" (discussed below) began.

Martin Chernoff became the President of the HCAA (1971-1975), and led the group towards Messianic Judaism34 (his sons, Joel and David, also served as Presidents - 1979-1983 and 1983-1987, respectively).35 In June of 1973, a motion was made to change the name of the HCAA to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA); however, a two-thirds majority vote was necessary to effect the name change, and only 62% was received at this time. Two years later, though, there was enough support, and in June of 1975, the name was officially changed to the MJAA. 36 The (mostly young) supporters of Messianic Judaism had won out; the name change was significant as more than just a "semantical expression;" as Rausch states, "it represented an evolution in the thought processes and religious and philosophical outlook toward a more fervent expression of Jewish identity."37

It is this "fervent expression of Jewish identity" that truly sets the Messianic Jew apart. By definition, he or she is "a person who was born Jewish or converted to Judaism, who is a 'genuine believer' in Yeshua [Jesus], and who acknowledges his Jewishness."38 As Paul Liberman asserts:
A tenet of Messianic Judaism asserts that when a Jew accepts a Jewish Messiah, born in a Jewish land, who was foretold by Jewish prophets in the Jewish Scriptures, such a Jew does not become a Gentile. In fact, he becomes a completed Jew -- a Jew who believes Jesus is the Messiah.39

In this context, there is then no conflict whatsoever between being "Messianic" and being "Jewish," since "believing in Yeshua, the Jewish Messiah, is one of the most Jewish things a Jew can do."40 The belief is held that this is Judaism in the "true" sense. In the words of Messianic Jewish theologian David Stern, "I am religious. Not Orthodox, not Conservative, not Reform, not Reconstructionist but Messianic."41

A key aspect of Messianic Judaism's deviance from the former Hebrew Christianity is its emphasis on using original Hebrew terms in place of traditional (Gentile) Christian terms. Examples include Abba (God the Father), HaBen (God the Son), Yeshua HaMash iach (Jesus Christ), Ruach HaKodesh (Holy Spirit), B'rit Hadasha (New Testament), Mikveh (baptism), Joachim (John), Miriam (Mary), Sa'aul (Paul), and Shilush (Trinity).42

The term "Messianic Judaism," though some have traced it even to the nineteenth century, was propounded in the 1950s by Dr. Lawrence Duff-Forbes, but was not widely accepted at the time.43 The revival of the concept really began in the late 1960s, and came to fruition in the early 1970s. The early twentieth century works of its proponents within Hebrew Christianity (such as Zacker, Levy and others) had little impact on its present-day com eback and growth, as their works were not even rediscovered until the 1980s, well after the entrenchment of today's Messianic movement.44

The leading organization of this movement is still the MJAA (the former HCAA), being the largest of its kind in the world, and representing the estimated 100,000 Messianic Jews in the United States. It is part of the larger international alliance formed in 1925, and encompassing thirteen countries.45 The MJAA is headquarted in Philadelphia (having moved there in 1980 from the old HCAA headquarters in Chicago,46 which had been located there since 1942). 47 For some years, the MJAA followed the practices of the HCAA and established local branches in various cities. However, these branches gradually began to go out of existence as a new phenomenon grew: Messianic congregations and synagogues. 48

In 1975, there were only seven of these distinctively Jewish congregations; 49 a decade ago, there were only fifteen. Today, there are at least ten times that number across the country.50 Martin Chernoff founded the first successful present-day Messianic Jewish congregation in Cincinnati, Ohio in 1970; 51 other examples include Congregation B'nai Maccabim in Chicago, led by John Fischer,52 the Messianic Jewish Congregation in Minneapolis (headed by Norman Nelson, a Gentile),53 Ahavat Zion Synagogue in Encino, California,54 and the most influential congregation in the MJAA from 1978 onward, Congregation Beth Yeshua in Philadelphia (also led by Martin Chernoff).55 Even Miami has at least three: Beth Yeshua, Beth Messiah in Miami Beach, and Bet Hesed in Kendall.

Over ninety percent of the Messianic congregations in the United States are "charismatic" in their theological orientation (believing in the gifts [charisms] of the Holy Spirit: tongues, healing, etc.),56 with one-third having been created by the charismatic Assemblies of God denomination.57 The meeting halls themselves often look similar to other synagogues, with the Israeli flag and the American flag at the front on either side, a Star of David, a menorah, and (in some cases) a Torah scroll behind a curtain. 58 Interestingly enough, these congregations are not "overtly evangelistic." They see their purpose as being for fellowship and worship "in a fashion more conducive to the Jewish heritage" than would be the case in a traditional Gentile Christian setting. 59

There are four umbrella organizations available for these congregations: the International Alliance of Messianic Congregations and Synagogues (IAMCS, a charismatic outgrowth of the MJAA), the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC, an independent charismatic group formed while the MJAA was hesitant in forming the IAMCS), the (non-charismatic) Fellowship of Messianic Congregations, and a smaller grouping within the Assemblies of God denomination.60

The UMJC, currently based in Denver,61 was formed in June of 1979 by thirty-three congregational leaders from the U.S. and Canada. It was not designed to be a hierarchical control mechanism, but instead "as a loose confederation to aid in fellowship and education." Beginning with only nine c harter members, the number had risen to twenty-five by 1982.62 In 1986, the IAMCS was formed by the MJAA, and is much more structured than the UMJC, granting only associate membership until a minimum number of congregants is reached and other standards are adhered to. 63

Several Messianic yeshivas have been founded,64 including Betzel Shaddai in Chicago, started by John Fischer (who also founded B'rit Shalom in 1978, which functions as an educational service agency to Messianic congregations). 65 In addition, there is the MJAA's Institute for Messianic Rabbinic Training (IMRT). Formed in 1989, the IMRT is designed to lead candidates to ordination, and offers Associate's and Bachelor's degrees in Messianic Rabbinics.66 Many of its courses are offered at the Annual Conferences of the MJAA, held at Messiah College in Grantham, Pennsylvania, which attracts approximately 2000 attendees.67 Over the years, conference participants have come to the Annual Conference from many countries, including Argentina, Australia, Brazil, Denmark, England, Finland, France, Germany, Hungary, Ireland, Israel, Mexico, New Zealand, Russia, South Africa, Sweden, and most of the United States.68

If the Messianic congregations are not "overtly evangelistic," there is a Jewish Christian organization that is: Jews for Jesus (JFJ). Founded in California by Moishe Rosen, the name (which is often misapplied to Jewish Christians in general, much to the chagrin of many of them) originated with a San Francisco Hillel rabbi who used the term in a campus newspaper article to describe the "Jewish Jesus People" he saw . Liking the "ring" of it, "Moishe enthusiastically appropriated the phrase for his group as both name and slogan."69

His "group" had started as a mission of the North Carolina-based American Board of Missions to the Jews (ABMJ),70 who sent Rosen (an ordained Baptist minister) to California in the early 1970s. He was so successful that they brought him back to New York to train other Jewish evangelists, but eventually he returned to San Francisco, populating JFJ mostly with born-again hippies (Jewish and Gentile).71 In August 1973, the ABMJ terminated Rosen's position as he became less denomination-oriented and more Jewish-oriented (messianic); the other eleven members of the mission also resigned from the Board in order to stay with JFJ. Their primary focus at this point had to be on raising financial support, since ABMJ funds had been cut off. This support came mostly from churches, so JFJ toned down their youth culture image, presented more and more of a Jewish image, and developed a "Hebrew Christian" ethnic identity.72 Today, JFJ is supported by churches, a number of Bible schools, and individual Christian donations (they take money only from those who agree with their beliefs; other donations are returned). In 1987, their annual budget was approximately $7 million, with ownership of $4.5 million in property and equipment.73 Today, their budget runs $10.2 million, with a full-time staff of 150 employees running branch offices in nine cities across the United States. There are also branch offices in Toronto, London, Paris, Buenos Aires, and Johannesburg. 74

JFJ's tactics are headstrong (sometimes confrontational) and evangelistic in nature; they are most famous for their "campaigns," during which they go out on the streets of major cities such as New York and distribute millions of "broadsides" (folded-over humorous tracts presenting the gospel in a Jewish manner). They also work in airports; in 1987, they won a unanimous Supreme Court decision protecting their First Amendment rights to distribute literature in government-run airports (the case was argued for JFJ by Jay Sekulow, who now heads the American Center for Law and Justice [ACLJ] in Virginia Beach, Virginia).75

Jewish Christians, whether labeled Hebrew Christians or Messianic Jews, have encountered much opposition over the years, from both Jews and Christians. Most Hebrew Christians themselves were at first opposed to their following Jewish customs and laws.76 Reaction to the growth of Messianic Judaism has been strong from some Jewish missionary groups, as well. The Chicago-based American Messianic Fellowship (AMF), established by the Christian Zionist W.E. Blackstone in 1887, called the movement "utterly unscriptural," stating its belief that "while still a Jew by birth, in spiritual condition the believing Jew is now a Christian and totally removed from the religion of Judaism."77 In 1975, the Fellowship of Christian Testimonies to the Jews (FCTJ) officially opposed Messianic Judaism as a "fourth branch of Judaism, and as distinct from mainline Christianity."78 Across the spectrum of Christianity, some evangelicals opposed the "Jewishness" of Messianic Judaism, while some mainline Protestants opposed the tactics of "Jews for Jesus"-style evangelism.79

Of course, Jews have opposed the movement as well. At the beginning of this century, the majority of Jews did not accept Jewish believers as being sincere; a common belief was that anyone who became a believer "must either be deranged or have converted for material gain."80 When the HCAA asked to become involved in the Zionist cause in Palestine, they were rejected by the Jewish Congress and the American Zionist Organization. 81 The American Jewish Committee has for years attempted to alert Jews to the "dangers" of Messianic Judaism; 82 and the Union of American Hebrew Congregations (UAHC) has established a Committee on Cults and Missionaries, which provides educational materials "for use by member congregations in the battle against the deceptive techniques of ... various Hebrew-Christian groups."83 Other groups, such as Jews for Judaism and the Jewish Defense League (JDL), have (sometimes violently) opposed and protested against Messianic Judaism and Messianic congregations.84

Is the Messianic Jew an "absurd Jew?" As Rausch puts it, "The Christian has told the Messianic Jew that 'Judaizing' is a very grave sin. Jews have told the Messianic Jew that the idolatry of 'Jesus' is a very grave sin."85 The movement would seem to be stuck between the two. However, their strength, as shown previously, has grown exponentially. Where they were dismissed a few years ago, they are today taken seriously (whether in a positive light or not). In fact, in a large number of cases, by the 1980s, many of the organizations which had been "anti-Messianic" were now mostly supporting "the concept of Messianic congregations and distinctly Jewish forms of worship and religious practice."86 And many in the movement now reject outright the attempt to divide Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews as distinct and separate categories.87 In an article on the movement in Reform Judaism , Sheri Gordon writes:

There are more than 450 groups that hope to convert Jews in the United States, Israel, and Canada. Of those, approximately 150 are Hebrew Christian organizations, such as Jews for Jesus, that practice a hybrid of Judaism and Christianity. In 1978, approximately 10,000 Jews belonged to a Hebrew Christian group; today the ranks have multiplied to 160,000 members ... Missionizing to Jews also extends to television shows such as "Zola Levitt" in Dallas and the "Jewish Voice Broadcast" in Phoenix and radio programs such as "Messianic Vision" in New Jersey. 88

If present trends continue, the Messianic movement in the United States will likely achieve more success in the coming years. However, while its acceptance may grow among Gentile Christians, there is little likelihood that the same acceptance will be granted by the American Jewish community. Thus, Messianic Jews will probably remain on the outside of this community, looking in. "

http://anyonecare.wordpress.com/2008/04/29/israel/

http://lbolm.wordpress.com/2008/06/11/testimonies-from-the-lakeland-revival/

Maybe in a little bit I will be able to come back and discuss this more!

The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit in the Life and Ministry of Jesus and the Church from Luke-Acts
Audio from the newfrontiers website
Adrian's liveblog and streamed audio: Doctrine of the Holy Spirit in Luke-Acts

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The Missional Church
Audio from the newfrontiers website
Adrian's liveblog and streamed audio: The Missional Church

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Missional Movements
Audio from the newfrontiers website
Adrian's liveblog and streamed audio: Missional Movements

The Democratic Party’s Religious Outreach, Leah Daughtry and Black Liberation Theology.

From Soli Deo Gloria:

The Spirit of Truth Set Me Free From the False Anointing

This is the New Breed, those who believe they are the Churches future: What do you think, can we forgive someone’s sins? I posted this under the thread about Lee Grady’s recent commentary, ‘Can We Avoid a Charismatic Civil War?’, but want to include the link here as well. This is a very serious reply to Lee’s commentary written by Dan at  Cerulean Sanctum blog; The Coming Charismatic Civil War. Read it if you have the time, for what Dan is talking about includes what you’re seeing in this clip which is being taught to people attending these New prophetic and Supernatural  Schools of Ministry.

• evidence of God’s powerful activity
• awareness of his presence
• faith for change

 All these are modelled in the Dry Bone Valley.They are the kind of attractions we should expect in the places we we will be dropped off in when we feel the hand of the LORD on us.

Isaiah provides an example—totally against expectation. God will make himself known to Egypt, they will draw in Assyria to worship with them and together with Israel—unlikely partners—they will become a blessing to the earth.  That’s transformation.

I have spent the last year or so looking at the significant numbers of young people who are leaving churches like ours.  Lots of my generation who experienced renewal a generation ago are losing heart too are moving away, too.  They feel that current experiences of renewal do not seem to have all that much connection with God’s mission in the world.  They may be right but sadly--along with the dirty bath water of the way we charismatics like to do things--they are in danger of losing the baby, too.

What do I mean by bath water.  It’s all the church stuff that surrounds the living, breathing presence of God among us.  Bath water needs changing.  It gets contaminated if you keep it around.  

The issue of long term faithfulness has already been raised.

There is a very real danger of losing faith in a desert situation.  There's an excellent article by Earl Creps that we have found energising.

Ezekiel was on the edge of being negative and arguably, Elijah completely lost it in his desert.  Building a new road in the desert with declining expectation that the LORD will turn up is a short step from adding to the dry bones.

Then there is the question of singing to the well—a foundational idea for the Transform meetings.

There is also the issue of spiritual warfare.  I wonder whether that is more likely to happen in the desert working for the Kingdom, than staying back and building the church.

For now that’s where this series stops.  I haven’t tried to deal with objections, though lots have occurred to me and more will have struck you.  If we get a conversation going we will no doubt get chance to refine my thinking.  If not, its helped me to prepare a talk and I am even more excited about the prospect of a slow-burn, Emmaus Road type, Egypt style awakening theat will see the wells flowing and authentic transformation occurring in the places where we live.

My reason for not bothering to jump on the bandwagon and waste my opinion out there into the blogosphere is simple: there’s nothing new under the sun. People were split about Brownsville; people trashed the Toronto Blessing, and any other historical move of God was maligned by a lot of the church during their days. Is there ever such a thing as a 'clean' or 'nice' revival? Do babies come out of the womb all cleaned pampered? If we stood in the operating room when a baby is delivered, we'd never point at it and say "that can't be your baby--it's all messy and got this thing sticking out of its belly button, and it's crying and screaming and it's hair isn't parted." Of course not!

Given that many of my friends and readers of this blog might not likely be familiar with what’s going on in Lakeland, Florida, then allow me to say that something's going on that people think is revival and others think is a farce and that healings are taking place by the hand of satan, not God, because evangelist Todd Bentley has tattoos and we all know God would never ordain with his Spirit such a man.

The other reason I’ve not tackled this, is because everybody who’s got a blog and 12 people who will read it are self-proclaimed experts on the subject, because, let’s face it, it’s much easier to criticize people who are in the limelight, like Bentley, than it is to do something productive with our time instead. So since I’m also just some nobody with blog like everybody else these days, I figured “why would my opinion matter?” Will anyone receive it or are the lines already drawn in the sand with no convincing people to open up their hearts and minds concerning what God wants to do in this hour regardless of the vessel used? Unfortunately, I’m positive the Lakeland Revival/Florida Healing Outpouring has given many self-appointed heresy hunters a reason to live.

So since everybody is blogging about it, then there really is no point in adding to the confusion and writing something if people might already be so turned off of the negative criticism going on all over the net about it. Since unlike many moves of God in the past, the internet has given a dimension to what is going on in Lakeland that there has not been even with things as recent as Toronto and Pensacola. My observation is that the camps have already been settled in Christendom (the parts that even know or realize what is going on in Lakeland anyway). I have not heard anybody else jump on what I'm about to, but frankly, the division is one reason for me why this is worth being careful not to assume is false—because every genuine move of God in the past had people against it.

So I want to be careful first off, because 3 months into this one, is way too early for me to see what all the long term fruit will turn out to be, and fruit is a key thing to look for in if something is of God or not. But otherwise I'm all for it since healing, signs, wonders, and miracles, are the biggest thing I've seen missing from Christianity for years, so why would I want to get in the way and stop it if God is pouring out his Spirit on His people in such a way and in a certain location that people can receive it and change the lives of those they carry it to? This notion is NOT unbiblical nor does it contradict anything in the New Testament. The Brownsville Revival of 1995-2000 birthed a school (two technically), and sent hundreds of missionaries all over the world as a result of its 5 years or so of intensity. And now untold hundreds of fulltime missionaries are doing great works through out the world still to this day, and who knows how many others carried this fire with them to other places they came from and aren’t in ‘fulltime ministry’ but radically making an impact with what was imparted to them? So no, I will not finger point and fault find in something so readily.

What really concerns me the most
I’m going to take the time to point out something that does annoy me about much of the "revival police". I'm not talking about godly people who just simply don't get this, and that's fine. But for those who speak of other members of the church as not even being saved because they see it the same way as them. Please stick around my blog long enough to see that I do teach Biblical doctrines and stick to the Bible as my source--which is a blanket straw man argument many detractors of Todd Bentley's erroneously point out much of the time on those who are promoting the revival and in favor of what’s going on in Florida. Right now I'm just sharing my thoughts, not writing a doctoral dissertation.

Unlike many of the people who have an opinion, I have actually attended it about a month ago. You can hear me share my experiences on our Fire On Your Head podcast—because frankly, it’s easier to talk for a recording and answer someone’s questions about it than it is to write, which unarguably takes way longer to do. Another reason I’ve not blogged about it is because of how hard it would be to capture all my thoughts and make a fair assessment of it in the form of writing.

What I want to focus on is the outright dishonest and unrighteous tabloid journalism I constantly am seeing on YouTube and peoples’ personal and ministry blogs. I’m very hesitant to openly criticize individuals or ministries on my blog or our podcast. Why? What if I’m wrong and the person's right after all? What if I don't have a monopoly on proper theology and/or ministry methods after all? What if I get my blinders yanked off and find out before God on judgment day that someone I deemed a heretic was actually a key vessel He was using, and I was in the way with my narrow-minded judgmentalism and whoever else I was able to influece against them--that I inadvertantly caused 'little ones' of God's flock to stumble because they listened to me direct them away from clean waters instead of towards them? The Bible is pretty clear that being a teacher in the Body of Christ is a very serious task, so the last thing I want to do is hinder people from receiving from God because of having bad personal theology I influenced them with. To label another member of God’s family “demon possessed” or “wolf in sheep’s clothing” and things is a very serious accusation and I don’t understand the liberty with which some people can so casually throw that term around every time someone is ministering outside of their box of how God works.

If someone IS in error or heresy, or just plain has bad doctrine that doesn’t influence the price of tea in China, then don’t you think we should pray for them that God would reveal the truth to them--and fervently mean it and believe God would? Or if someone is allegedly a ‘wolf in sheep’s clothing’ like people are saying regarding the leaders of Ignited Church and Todd Bentley and any of his associates at Fresh Fire Ministries, do we suddenly have any right to be unrighteous in our means of dealing with him and pointing it out? Is vicious name calling suddenly ok because the person "isn’t really saved"? (I see this with Christians in politics demonizing the opponent they’d never vote for, but let’s stick to just this topic). If I were an unbeliever and I watched what Christians are doing to people like they do to Todd, I’d be reinforced that Christians are just jerks not worth listening to with their claims of the Gospel. I certainly wouldn’t get saved and join their faith, that’s for sure.

Another thing I want to throw out there
I was there the night Todd ALLEGEDLY prophesied Jesus was going to come back the next night. Being present, I heard exactly what Todd said and did—he READ A LETTER from someone from the God.Tv network who had a prophecy about Jesus showing up on Pentecost Sunday (which was the next night). He said, but I don't quote him 100%, but the jist of it was “now people who don’t understand the prophetic are going to say I said Jesus would physically show up tomorrow night”. What happened after that? You guessed it --there’s a popular YouTube video going around, hotly talked about on peoples’ blogs about what a false prophet Todd is because—according to them—he falsely prophesied the second coming of Christ. Todd's apparently a false prophet to be condemned by the revival police at their keyboards watching online.

What???? That would be my first reaction---if it were the truth!
I understood Bentley NOT to be talking about the second coming-and it was someone else’s prophetic word--and he was just reading it! Charismatics aren't talking about the Left Behind books or the Rapture when they use the term prophetic, but the gift of prophecy/prophesying (in other words "saying something the Lord would say if He were present in person")But the video on YouTube has all these words added to the screen by the guy who edited it to suggest for you what you should think is going on. I think that kind of stuff is really misleading and unrighteous on the part of those editing it and adding their commentary to the screen. Like I said, I was there that night and in no way shape or form interpreted or believed Todd was prophesying the second coming—nor did ANY of the other people I sat with or traveled there with—but that is exactly what all these “revival experts” are insisting on.

I don’t get how these peoples’ consciences don’t bother them or they don’t feel the Holy Spirit convicting them for being so dishonest and making another brother in Christ look so bad—which are the very things they say against the people involved in Lakeland—Todd Bentley being the key lightning rod receiving it. Have any of these Bible experts an explanation for what "take the plank out of your own eye before removing the speck in your brother's eye" means? And if the people of God are supposedly so gullible, as many critics and detractors insist one has to be if they’re on board with what’s going on in Lakeland—then how come they feel it’s acceptable for them to stoop to the same level? When I watch these videos that “quote” Todd as he speaks, it makes me wonder how dumb they think I am that I can’t just listen and watch with discernment for myself. Many of these same people who are worried about the ‘dumb sheep’ being led astray capitalize on the same lack of discernment and this is demonstrated by how they’re constantly telling them what they should think and believe about what’s going on. Does nobody else think that’s just as bad?

Critics did the SAME thing in the 1990s over Pastor John Kilpatrick and Evangelist Steve Hill, and even Dr Michael L. Brown (who was appropriately nicknamed the “theologian of the revival”) wrote a book called “Let No One Deceive You” which later got changed to “The Revival Answer Book.” It specifically was a book he wrote to answer all the objections people were having about Brownsville at the time, and revival in general, but using the Bible and theology. Highly readable and not so technical for the average reader. I remember Steve Hill was targeted on websites in an unrighteous way—you can even still find stuff online but it’s not nearly as bad as today with all the blogs, YouTube videos and podcasts people make—especially since you can watch this one live online or on God.TV! I once saw a video where they edited it and said that Steve Hill is possessed by this demon that’s a serpent, because he hisses (supposedly) and why does he touch people on the head and say “fire” when praying for them? It gives me a chuckle to see people splitting hairs over if it matters whether Todd says “Bam” or “shikaboom” when praying. Is that the best heresy some revival police can come up with on him? I know for a fact there’s plenty better ammunition than that!

To all of of the people slinging mud on Todd Bentley or any other leader of revival in recent years like John Kilpatrick and Steve Hill, John Arnott, etc – if these people are really deceptive and leading people astray, don’t you think their own words and actions can speak for themselves and don’t need carefully re-edited clips posted on YouTube to suit your view? We call that kind of behavior “LYING” when people do it in other settings like businesses or the court of law, so why Christians feel it’s an acceptable way of directing peoples’ attention to ‘concerns’ we have for them is beyond me. I fail to see how one sin is greater and more acceptable than another.

In conclusion (for now)
I don't anticipate this will be the last thing I write on my blog about Lakeland, or Todd Bentley, BUT don't expect it to turn into a blog that just documents the latest goings on with them. I don't have time for that. But I thought I'd throw this out there once. If you come across this and disagree, I don't mind. I request that no paragraphs of this be taken out of context but that if this post gets shared, it's in its entirety.

Let's be prayerful--do we really want revival to hit our land, or do we want to fight each other over all the details about it if it does come?

Please don't use the comments section to spam link to all the 'research' you've done on Todd. It's for commenting.

There are several implications of this verse:

1. We make our prayers to our Mediator: Christ. We don't pray to anyone else (including dead saints like Mary) because Christ and Christ alone is our Mediator.
2. Mortal men are not our go-between to God either. We don't have to go to some priest or preacher to offer up prayers for us.

We've already have Christ as our Mediator, the One Who willingly laid down His life for our sins. Not only do other mediators not exist, but if one could choose, no better choice could be made.

So, Catholics, don't bother running ads in the newspaper praising St. Jude (or anyone else) because if prayers are answered, St. Jude didn't do it, Christ did.

Evangelicals, stop sending money to preachers (especially TV preachers) in hopes that your "love gifts" or donations to their ministries are going to help your prayers to be answered.

Catholics and evangelicals: Neither will buying that prayer cloth, prayer rug, "holy water", "holy cake", nor anything else that anyone is "offering" to you help get your prayers answered.

Christ is our Mediator and it is He Who answers our prayers.

"Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

It seems that Todd Bentley has acquired some sort of colossal Charismatic crackrock.   Everyone wants a piece.  God TV is the middle man for the junky on the street and boy are the ducats dropping!  There’s a new boy in town and Che Ahn, Peter Wagner, Rick Joyner, Stephen Straeder, Carl Straeder, Doris Wagner, Joshua Fowler, er, er, er, er, ertily, er-er (They’re all starting to run together in my thoughts) know that he’s got to be brought in or else he could disrupt the entire organization.  So Bentley becomes a made man. 

But wait…Bentley decides to go legit (kind of like Michael Corleone in the Godfather III), take it all mainstream.  So he goes on Geraldo and Nightline with ‘legitimate evidence’ from his PR firm.  Lists and lists of people healed without a single doctor to confirm it all—they wouldn’t even sign their names to the testimonies.  And, still the ATM’s at Lakeland are practically melting from the friction built up by the card swipes of the faithful. 

What is one to do?  How many children with spina bifida or cerebral palsy must fall under the countenance of charlatans, only to be carried off stage without so much as a fingernail refurbished?   How many more men, women, and children will ingest the deadly toxin being sold at Lakeland to soon discover that it decays a true and lively faith centered upon the Good News of Jesus Christ? 

Time will tell.  In the meantime, I’m going on vacation (Hey, if apostle Bentley can do it...).  My family and I are getting away for a week.  So…you won’t hear from me for a little while (laptops don’t mix too well with sand).  I plan to rediscover that the important stuff doesn’t live in a 12x8 computer screen.  And, I look forward to taking a break from the unavoidable madness that constantly jettisons across my theological radar at Mach 3.  See you all soon.

--Natrimony

And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven saying, "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign forever and ever.  -- Revelation 11:15 

You shall also decree a thing, and it shall be established unto you: and the light shall shine upon your ways. - Job 22:28

We are often told that worship is an attitude of the heart, that we can do it without ever uttering a word from our lips, and that all of life should be an expression of worship to the Lord.  Although this is true, and heartfelt adoration of the Lord is of much greater value than mere lip service, today I would like to focus on the huge impact that spoken, out loud worship has on the world around us. 

A few weeks ago, we mentioned that worship is a weapon of our warfare.  It puts the devil's forces in disarray, as we see in the story of Jehoshaphat's victory, in 2 Chronicles 20:1-30.  The worship that brought about that victory was verbal, not an inward adoration alone. 

Worship is the sound of heaven.  When we worship, we unite with heaven to bring about the will of God in the earth.  Every time we speak or sing of the majesty, greatness, power, and glory of God, we are decreeing it and affirming it in the earth and over the powers of darkness.  We establish God's authority, His glory, in the earth by verbalizing it. 

What this means is that, when we extol God's love and mercy in our worship, it is a holy decree that then increases the establishment of His love and mercy around us.  When we adore Him for His faithfulness, His faithfulness is released in the atmosphere around us to a greater degree.  When we sing of His greatness, His goodness, His power, those things are loosed among us.  This is not to say that God's mercy, faithfulness, greatness, and all the wonderful qualities that make up His character are limited in some way, and that we make them bigger by our worship.  No, God is already limitless in His goodness.  But there is a cooperating between us and heaven that takes place through worship that causes the goodness of God to be manifested more fully in the earth when we honor Him aloud for those things.

The River Church

Lakeland, Florida, Barack Obama & Burma: A Call to Respond to The Signs of the Times by Pete Grieg

Rumours of Revival by Billy Kennedy

(Another) Rumours of Revival by David Derbyshire

The Lakeland Outpouring and Todd Bentley By Robert Holmes and Brian Medway in Storm Harvest (Australia)

Leaders Commission Todd Bentley at ‘Lakeland Outpouring’ - from Charisma Magazine

Biblical Reasons To Receive God's Glory and Give It Away in Power Evangelism by Dr. Gary S. Greig

Rick Joyner on Lakeland (and Question/Response)

Chuck Pierce and C. Peter Wagner on Lakeland

Leaving Lakeland in TheOoze: Part One, Part Two, and Part Three

Lifting Jesus High! Bringing Biblical Light to Your Questions about the Lakeland Outpouring & Todd Bentley by Todd Bentley - the Man Himself speaks out!

So what do I think? I wouldn't venture to say unless I go to Lakeland. I'll be in Florida this next week, but alas: here rather than here. But I'll continue to pray that God's good dreams find hands, feet, and ecosystem to manifest, in as much diversity as God so delights in. Until next time, friends...

This is actually our 'sin', the fact that we test and question.  If we just accepted it like they all do (because they've spent time with Todd one weekend playing WWE on playstation and got to know him as this awesome guy) and not open our bibles to find scripture to backup all the extremely weird and sometimes blatantly demonic teachings then we are ok, and we 'belong', and will all sing cumbaja together in the Kingdom that is to come - however I am not sure WHICH Kingdom they are talking about;  the one they are trying to setup themselves now or the one Jesus Christ sets up himself.  

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The Lord at Lakeland

Wade E Taylor

(This is presented for the benefit of those who are meeting the Lord in, or through the Lakeland meetings, but are confused by the criticism).

It is a fact that God is very present in the Lakeland, Florida meetings, and also that continued waves of His presence and glory are moving through these meetings.  Many are being healed and deeply impacted by the presence of the Lord, totally apart from the pulpit.

>>  It's a fact?  Really?  How so?  Because we are told to just believe and experience it and put our concerns on hold and NOT open our bibles and just accept it?  The Word of God on the other hand tells us to test and weigh everything we hear and see with the written Word BEFORE we deem it to be of God.  Thousands upon thousands upon thousands of Christians have opened their bibles to test Lakeland and found it to be unbiblical - these are the people you consider to be 'critics', but the ones who just accept blindly you consider 'righteous'.  Jesus warned us that the signs and wonders we will see in the end times are meant to DECEIVE, Matthew 24.

>>  Many are being healed?  Really?  Then why when the media requested proof Todd could not offer proof.  You would think with all the thousands of people coming to Lakeland that he would have people lining up to support him in his dire hour of providing proof to the media. 

ABC NEWS:  The Healing Touch?

When asked to present evidence of the healings, Bentley promised to give "Nightline" the names and medical records of three followers who would talk openly about his miracles. He never delivered. Instead, his staff gave "Nightline" a binder filled with what he says are inspiring miracles, but with scant hard evidence. It offered incomplete contact information, a few pages of incomplete medical records, and the doctors' names were crossed out.

When pressed further, Bentley provided the name of a woman in California who had a large tumor in her uterus that shrank after she saw Bentley.

Her husband, however, told "Nightline" that it could be a coincidence because she was still undergoing medical treatment. He said she was too tired to talk to us at the time but added that she was regaining her strength day by day.

The husband did provide some of his wife's medical records from a clinic in Tijuana, Mexico, where she went for cancer treatment after being turned away by American hospitals. They, however, insisted on obscuring the clinic's name and the names of the doctors.

Not a single claim of Bentley's healing powers could be independently verified.

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/FaithMatters/Story?id=5338963&page=4

>>  'Deeply impacted' indeed, you got that part right.  The demonic manifestations being laid on people are going to destroy them spiritually.

John the Baptist was the forerunner of the Church Age.  Also, it can be said that these meetings at Lakeland can be considered as being a forerunner (there are others) of the end-time visitation that will lead into the Millennial Kingdom of God.

>>  To say that Lakeland 'can be considered' as being a forerunner for the end-times is not 'proof' that it actually IS. 

>>  Which Kingdom are you speaking of here?  The one that you guys are trying to setup with all your Dominionist unbiblical teachings?  The one that involves Joel's army marching over the earth conquering land for Jesus?  The same Joel's army that is called God's army not because the army consists of truly born again believers - quite the opposite, but because God uses this army that causes destruction to usher in the anti-Christ? 

>>  Also why do you call Jesus' wonderful return an 'end-time visitation'?  That's the strangest thing I've heard (well not really, I've heard so many strange, unbiblical things come out of Lakeland supporter's mouths).  'Visitation' sounds so impersonal, almost like you are expecting someone else to show up.

Therefore, the following is presented as a contrast between John the Baptist and Todd Bentley.

>>  You miss the point, it's not about his looks, it about the unscriptural things he does and teaches:  William Branham's mantle, angles, portals, opening 'heavenly' gates, the way he conducted a baptism and the things he said, punching and kicking people to 'heal' them, realm of the seers, lying about when he got his tattoos, contemplative prayer, meditation, conversing with the dead (all be it in trips to 'heaven'), the fact that Bob Jones is Todd's mentor and says the most unbelievably godless things, like the anointing can be found in the kidneys, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.  Emma is now male and not female anymore, certain geographical areas being spiritual hot-spots, more than 1 anointing, allowing people to 'prophesy' scripture over Todd that was meant for Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ only, false prophecy of Jesus showing up on a Lakeland stage in a chariot amongst many other false prophecies...oh I can go on and on and on.   So just to reiterate in case you didn't understand;  It's NOT about the way he looks!   If you are interested in the truth, please go here: http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2008/05/26/index-to-all-articles-on-todd-bentley-lakeland-outpouring-florida-revival/

“Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came to John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness.”  Luke 3:2

The Lord bypassed the religious leaders of that day, as the glory had departed and all that was left was a dead religious form and ritual.  They had no spiritual ear to hear the present word of the Lord.  Therefore, the Lord chose another, John the Baptist, to prepare the way for Jesus to bring redemption.

>>  They didn't have the Word of God in the written Word, but we DO and God tells us to use it and test EVERYTHING so that we are not deceived and led astray.  Are you saying that Todd replaces the Word of God?  I can't imagine what else you are trying to say here...

“And the same John had his raiment of camel's hair, and a leathern girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.”  Matthew 3:4

John the Baptist did not fit the religious mold of his day and time.  His life-style made him an easy target, as his girdle of camel's hair was not the priestly attire of the day, nor was his message that of the Scribes and Pharisees.  This relates also to Todd Bentley, whose appearance is not acceptable to those who are judging religiously (apart from true spiritual discernment).

>>  Please refer to above;  This is not about the way he looks.  If anything the product of his looks stems from his unbiblical heretical beliefs.  He got his demonic looking tattoo's AFTER he was supposedly saved.

The Lord sovereignly chose to move while Todd Bentley was speaking at this church in Lakeland.  He has become the center of an ongoing criticism of all that is taking place during these meetings.  Rather than being critical of Todd, in reality, those who are being critical, are in effect, finding fault with the Lord for choosing to move while Todd was present at this church.

>>  Of course he would become the centre of attention, his teachings are unbiblical and sometimes downright demonic - if he never called himself a Christian no one would batter an eyelid for it would be expected.  But he calls himself a Christian, yet at the same time, lies, deceives, preaches New Age teachings, blasphemes and imparts an anointing where people get hurt (physically) - never mind spiritually.

There are those who are so concerned with what might be false, that they are unable to perceive, or respond to any genuine presence and power of God that may be present in these ongoing meetings.

>>  *sorry I have to chuckle here*  You of all people should know that 'feelings', 'perceptions' and 'responses' DO NOT VALIDATE that this is from God.  If what is being preached contradicts the Word of God then how on earth can the power than presents itself thereafter be from God? 

Sadly, there are some who are comparing the visible manifestations that take place within those being touched by the power of God, with the manifestations that take place in Hinduism due to demon possession.  Since Satan seeks to counterfeit that which is genuine and real, this is not a valid or just criticism as the counterfeit is always comparable to the real.

>>  "Since Satan seeks to counterfeit that which is genuine and real, this is not a valid or just criticism as the counterfeit is always comparable to the real."   HUH??  Rubbish!  Satan seeks to counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, he does not give a hoot what they 'look like', 'manifest like' or 'compare too' as long as YOU think it's ok, then he is happy.  And you think it's ok, because you refuse to open your bible and find scripture to back up anything that Todd and his friends say.

These “sounds,” the source of much criticism, are not the voice of the Holy Spirit, but rather, the person’s response to the manifestation of the power of God.  In time, these sounds will become a song of deliverance and worship.  The word tells us that God has “chosen the foolish things to confound the wise.”

>>  No Wade, wrong again, our criticism is not to the response of said manifestations but due to the UNBIBLICAL teachings that accompany said manifestations.  As I said above, if someone (Todd) baptises someone in the name of 'BAM' then how on earth can it be a godly baptism?  The same goes for everything else he says and then does!

Thus, some are on very dangerous ground, as they are attributing this genuine visitation of the presence and power of God to satan.  This criticism may relate to the unpardonable sin, and as Michal, who criticized David, these critics could become spiritually barren.

>>  Oh please, give me a break, if you actually opened your bible and didn't just believe ever Todd, Dick and Harry you would never say that.

The center of attention should be the presence and power of God that is moving among the people who are present - those who are flowing in pure worship to the Lord.  The visible spiritual hunger of those present should challenge all of us.

>>  No Wade, the centre of attention should be the Bible, you know that book that contains God's Word to us.

Just as the “religious” of that day sought to destroy Jesus whom John introduced as “The Lamb of God,” so also in our day, there are those who are intent on destroying Todd.  They are either unaware of, or are not discerning properly the sovereign presence and purpose of our Lord in these meetings at Lakeland, even though the Lord continues to move in waves of manifest glory through the thousands who are present.

>>  Oh we are discerning just fine, but thanks for the concern.  Comparing Todd to Jesus are we?  You can't compare Todd or ANY man for that matter with Jesus because Todd preaches things that goes against the Word of God.

“But as then, he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.”  Galatians 4:29

This present move is evangelistic in nature, and has a further purpose.  When those who are spiritually hungry and tired of dead religion come from all over the world to these meetings, they are exposed to the presence and glory of God.  This creates an enlarged spiritual receptivity and capacity within them, in preparation for their part in the deeper visitation that is yet to come.

>>  Ahhh what further purpose are you speaking of Wade?  The Kingdom you and your fellow Joeleans are trying to establish on earth?  It's quite funny comparing Dominionists to the Bible, for the Bible says, "But the Son of Man coming then, shall He find faith on the earth?”.  Now if you are all going to take the earth back for 'Jesus' to present to Him a Kingdom and the bible says, when Jesus comes back he's not going to find much faith, then who the heck are you trying to fool?  What faith is your Kingdom built on?  And who is this Jesus you keep talking about, because it's not Jesus Christ of the Bible. 

>> And again you mention the word 'visitation' like it's something alien you are expecting. 

The Lord will yet bring forth an outpouring of His glory, as recorded in II Thessalonians 1:10:   “When He shall come to be glorified in His saints.”

>>  This verse you quoted does not back up what you are trying to say and is taken out of context.

Just as the religious critics of that day had no part in the restoration of glory that took place on the Mount of Transfiguration, the religious critics of our day will also have no part in the coming restoration and visitation of manifest glory.

>>  Nope, I think the other way round is more like it, for Joel's army is destroyed - those ones who think they are doing God's will, when in fact they are nothing but locusts that cause destruction and are destroyed.

>>  There's that word 'visitation' again.

Please read these articles:

• http://discerningtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/dominionism-and-the-rise-of-christian-imperialism/
• http://discerningtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/03/16/a-new-breed-are-you-one-of-them

Wade's letter found here:  http://www.wadetaylor.org/apresentword/7_APW%20The%20Lord%20at%20Lakeland.html

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I pray Wade that the Holy Spirit speaks to you about the errors of these so called 'Godly' men, and your eyes are opened to what is really going on.  Rick Joyner, C. Peter Wager et al commissioned Todd Bentley - they are all in the same anti-Christ camp.  This anointing (an anti-Christ spirit) that is being passed onto people is blinding them to the truth and they will all happily join the 'Army of God'.  They will be destroyed in the end.  I don't want you to be destroyed Wade!  Save yourself and the people in your congregation who look up to you as a man of God.

Media can't verify a single healing:  http://discerningtheworld.wordpress.com/2008/07/13/todd-bentley-no-healings-verified-by-media-abc-news-usa-today-the-province/